The Jeff Pulver Blog: I want my <strike>MTV!</strike> MBone (and Multicast):

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October 24, 2005

I want my MTV! MBone (and Multicast):

Over ten years ago, before the Internet went commercial, it was possible to get a T1 line using UUNet and have MBone access which supported Multicast for our applications.

Now that broadband has become widely available in the US and around the world, now would be a great time to bring back the MBone, that was in effect the experimental "multimedia backbone" of the Internet. As I watch the disruptive broadcasting space continue to evolve, the advent of having Multicast supported by the companies offering broadband internet access could only help to accelerate the disruption of the traditional wireless broadcasting space. This would actually be in the public interest IMHO, since the radio spectrum for TV would better used for mobile communications that will include TV anyway.

I have recently asked a few friends the question "When will Multicast on the Public Internet Happen?" and the reply I heard most often was "Probably Never." It seems there are no commercial incentives for IP multicast and there is also a belief that it is not in the best interest of the cable companies and DSL providers to enable consumers to have access to a new MBone.

One friend has noted: "Multicasting in the market is, on the global scale, a rather sad story. Except for research networks, I am not aware of true multicast deployments. It appears that most ISPs are afraid of the multiplication effect that can be achieved by allowing their customers to send multicast -- and the difficulties this creates for capacity planning and traffic engineering. True IP multicast-based multimedia conferencing or games are therefore pretty much constrained to the research community. Everyone who needs flexible multipoint communications these days seems to be using overlays (pretty sad from an efficiency perspective). On the protocol side, the Reliable Multicast Transport (rmt) WG and the MBONE Deployment (mboned) WG in the IETF have made real progress. However, many of the companies active in this area in the past have disappeared. RTP works fine for multicast as well but you will find people who want to convince you that multicast is not needed -- at least in their narrow business model view of the world.

To counter the carrier and cable provider's fear and to address foremost needs, namely 1:n content distribution, the concept of source-specific multicast (SSM) was introduced in the IETF several years ago. This allows only one source per multicast group and thus comes pretty close to common distribution needs: for television broadcasts (well: multicasts) and other forms of content distribution.

And here multicasting is actually alive: there is quite a market for satellite-based content distribution via multicast, similar for cable and digital terrestrial broadcast. Even the MBMS service of the 3GPP features cell-local multicasting. And multicast is increasingly used in the context of ISPs on the last mile: when they start enriching their services towards triple play, they need to support efficient distribution of television over IP (even though some still think in terms of ATM) and this gets IP multicast to the last mile. Set top boxes suddenly speak IGMP to tune into program channels and SAP/SDP-style announcements/EPGs (more general: Internet Media Guides, IMGs :-) gain importance.

The final areas where IP multicasting is relevant are corporate networks (for content distribution, for service discovery, to simply DHCP, etc.) and probably mobile/ad-hoc networks (again for service discovery).

At some point, maybe WiMAX and WiFi hot-spots will also see multicasting as this may help with radio resources (particularly if TV is also delivered over WiMAX).."

Right now one of the great ironic twists of Internet Broadcasting comes that the more successful one's programming is, means that there is a need for higher capacity streaming media servers and more and more (and yet more) server bandwidth. Not that I have anything against paying for more and more bandwidth as more people tune-in but the advent of multicast would eliminate this problem.

While the future of broadcasting on the Internet isn't dependent on whether or not public Multicasting is enabled, things would be a lot different if (or when) it were to happen. Gone, for example would be the need for high power "streaming media servers" for pulver.RADIO and pulver.TV. While having access to highly scaleable, high capacity servers would always serve as a backup when someone's Multicast access was being blocked, the advent of Multicast would open up the gates and empower a generation of people to become personal content providers -- both in the video and audio "broadcasting" space as well as other yet to evolve communication technologies.

Of course, these days P2P technologies are getting the job done and content providers can look to deliver personal broadcasts using Bit Torrent. Personally, I also like the idea of uploading content to Google Video, or trying to put together a content distribution deal with Apple.

Now that broadband is happening around the world, it would be great if we can find a way to bring back the MBone in 2006. I would like to believe that there are enough people with common interests to find a way to make this happen. Please feel free to drop me a line if you have ideas on how to make this Internet dream, IP multicast, come true.

I want my ~~MTV!~~ MBone (and Multicast).

Tags: multicast, mbone, iptv, disruptive broadcasting

Posted by jeff on October 24, 2005 05:28 AM | Permalink

Additional resources: #140conf events | Watch the Jeff Pulver Show | Jeff's Qik Videos

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Posted by: chenlu at February 25, 2009 08:24 PM

So, I would only expect this to work in an Akamai type scenario, where the multicast happens within an ISP's private network, which a tunnel from the source to the server and a controlled multicast within the ISP network.

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Posted by: gold56465 at January 21, 2009 03:45 AM

hello jeff , just started recently an open source project to fix this issue ;)

greetings

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Posted by: 升降机 at July 14, 2008 06:01 AM

i thought of this for a long time too

....something like a skype-like P2P architecture would probably be the best solution where you effectively create a multi-cast-like network through establishment of application-level tree structures with nodes and supernodes.

Remember cuseeme ? how does it handle multicast ?

is it possible to build a multicast network with tunnels ?

http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=176221&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=14640328

thanks

marc

Posted by: marc at February 4, 2006 12:50 PM

Hello there Jeff,

I too am looking for people that will allow me to create a tunnel to them to hook up to the mBone.

I saw lots of information about it a few years ago, but now I can't find anything.

If anyone else that finds this on Google knows where the mBone links hang out, can you get in touch with me? (mydomain isn't my real domain - I'm sure you can work it out :) )

Calum

Posted by: Calum at February 2, 2006 02:28 PM

Indeed P2P is a better answer. IP Multicast requires extra complexity embedded in the lower layers and in the network. End-to-end arguments apply:
http://blogs.nmss.com/communications/2005/11/endtoend_overta.html

Posted by: Brough Turner at November 10, 2005 08:42 PM

Back in 1995 when I got our first T1 I remember the checkbox on the application to have mBone enabled. The research I did to see if I wanted it said yes give it to me.

The problem was that development did not take off commerically. I am afraid that with podcasting, etc, mBone is just a mere piece of history.

Posted by: robb kinnin at November 3, 2005 08:33 AM

The telcos and legacy broadcasters will not change in time. First they have to truly recognize their exposure, then decide to address it, then actually do it, competitively, all the while preserving their customer bases and revenue streams. If history teaches us anything, we should expect them to be, as the expression goes, "a day late and a dollar short". And we'll see lots more TIVO and podcasting, as consumers co-opt the legacy providers' positions with work-around methods.

Posted by: Ross Morley at October 27, 2005 12:37 PM

Honestly, who has the time to arrange their life around the broadcaster's schedule these days, be it terrestrial broadcast or IP multicast? That's why on demand viewing stands to disrupt broadcasting on the whole - content can be viewed whenever, wherever and however. What sorts of content truly need to be viewed in real time? I can think of two. Breaking news and sports.

Think how much programming comes through your cable service during the course of the month. Think about how much of that programming you can access at any moment. A fraction - ie only the shows that are playing on all the channels at that moment. And that's the biggest limitation of broadcast - be it terrestrial or IP multicast. Moving to on demand technologies can provide all content from all channels at all times.

The television affiliates should be scared by the advent of the iTunes store piping video directly into viewers' homes. The affiliates are holding on to some expensive property which is about to be devalued by a paradigm shift. In the end the move to on demand systems will benefit the viewers by providing greater choice and flexibility in use. The broadcasters need to figure out how to best utilize their resource - which still has value - but not in delivering most television or radio programming as it has since inception.

On demand providers have their work cut out trying to find the optimal way to deliver secure content while bundling advertising to defray costs from consumers. It will be interesting to watch the impact that Google Video and BrightCove have on traditional broadcasters. Unfortunately, it will probably be years until that impact can be measured. I'm all for getting on with it!

Posted by: Kent at October 25, 2005 01:27 AM

[Huh, same here, no linebreak in preview, don't know how to fix this -- sorry if this ends up as a big block]

I am convinced of the usefulness of multicast, and its benefits to users _and_ providers, esp. as streaming live content
becomes (even) more popular, but also 'broadcasts downloads' like security updates grow in size and frequency.

I asked the excellent support staff of my ISP, Speakeasy, about IGMP, PIM and/or DVMRP tunneling: last year they had "plans", 2 weeks ago they were "still working on [it]".
Good, they're multicast-aware, but they certainly don't consider this a priority.

I see a parallel with IPv6: most users don't see a benefit today, most providers don't offer it 'natively', but won't prevent geeks from tunneling this over plain IPv4. The major difference though is that IPv6 tunnel brokers are plentiful; I failed to find any public 'entry point' to some hypothetical MBone.

A temporary solution like tunneling is IMHO key to "bootstrapping" multicast despite current equipment/ISP limitations. 4 main components are required though:
* HOWTOs/software/wizard... to ease/automate the tunnel creation when/where necessary,
* Multicast-capable applications (RealPlayer? others?)
* public tunnel endpoints with multicast connectivity -- hard, probably needs support from some well-connected universities, visionary ISPs and/or companies.
* content distributed (and worth getting) via multicast.

Posted by: Olivier at October 24, 2005 07:57 PM

Much of the routing and switching gear out there still has major limitations in multicast support, both in the number of mulitcast groups that can be supported and how fast multicast requests can be handled. Plus they still have a lot of bugs.

Handling multicast DOS attacks is also a poorly understood subject.

Doc
p.s. -how do a enter a CR/LF - is this HTMLish?

Posted by: Doc McClenny at October 24, 2005 05:31 PM

While the mbone would be good for real time events, p2p networks work better for "canned" programing. Keep in mind that if you want to do a live interview in your studio in New York at noon, it's 4pm in London, 6pm in Israel, and 2am in Hong Kong. Going the other way, it's 8am in "silicon valley".

With P2P technology, tied in to some sort of a "push" system, a viewer can watch it at their convienence, for example when they come into work the next morning.

Geoff.

Posted by: Geoff Mendelson at October 24, 2005 12:58 PM

October 24, 2005

I want my MTV! MBone (and Multicast):

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