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May 22, 2007

Question of the Day: How important do you think it is for a young person today to go to a top-level university?

The answers shared last week to the question Do you know more from the things you taught yourself or from what you learned in school? are still resonating in my head.

Given all that was shared, I am wondering more about the where and how we learn the things that matter the most to us.

Which leads me to today's Question of the Day: If you have kids (and/or have an opinion), how important do you think it is for a young person today to go to a top-level university? (and is it required for a young person to have a college education?)

--
(If you have a suggestion for a future question of the day, please drop me a line.)

Tags: , Jeff Pulver

Posted by jeff on May 22, 2007 08:15 AM | Permalink

Additional resources: #140conf events | Watch the Jeff Pulver Show | Jeff's Qik Videos

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Posted by: qingyun at April 13, 2010 02:21 AM

As an entrepreneur, I guess I run in circles of people who place the premium on creativity and ideas, not degrees and resume glitter. This is especially true of the cutting-edge tech/web business, about which I recently heard a VC remark that half of his job is making sure the management team has completely unlearned everything they thought they knew coming out of college, where the knowledge is too "five minutes ago" to be anything but a liability.

This might be off-topic, but only slightly: I'm baffled when I observe that the entrepreneurial spirit that creates the next big idea is rarely prized when the same entrepreneur starts staffing their recently successful organization. The same entrepreneur who wears his self-taught street smarts as a badge of honor admittedly wants to see impressive university degrees on the resumes of his/her hires.

Posted by: Carter Harkins at May 27, 2007 12:58 PM

For some time I struggled with the question of if I should complete my college degree or not, over the past couple of weeks I've learned that I can find my dream job without it.

Indeed, one can be judged by not having that piece of paper in their hand that certifies them to become a part of some elite group. Our society is pushed to believe that a college education is something that you *must* have in order to get by in life. I can say living in a manufacturing town that making good money and having a good life doesn't require a piece of paper.

Sure, many well known employers want you to have that line on your resume saying that you've served your time. You prove yourself in a much more profound way by how you deal with life's challenges, job situations, how you perform.

Is a foot in the door worth thousands of dollars of debt? It's all a matter of your end goal.

Posted by: Michelle at May 23, 2007 08:13 AM

I think that there is a major difference between corporate and entrepreneurial life style in an answer for such a question. If your kid sees himself as a CEO of a well established company - clearly, there is a huge value in studying in top level university. if he sees himself more of DYI kind of guy - that's something else. Then, connections and experience are much more important. Also remember that this is a geographical question - if you are planing to work in country X and get a top level degree from country Y it might not worth the effort.

Posted by: Kfir Pravda at May 23, 2007 02:02 AM

so the real question is what are the defining moments in your life that really influenced you and i was thinking of college yesterday as i have this young friend who is studying for finals today at brooklyn college and i remember going their when i was young and didn't know better - i think tests prove only that you can memorize things - it doesn't mean you remember it or even that you cared about it - one of the real purposes parents send their off spring to a the temple of education called a university is not to study the universe but to meet people of like social status and to find a spouse and to live happily every after and oh yes to get a job so you can support the life after you lived happily ever after - so my thought is universites should be about curiosity and inquiring minds - and being able to follow your passion - in the end i think you learn from making mistakes some times you are lucky enough to stumble on a good mistake and other times you learn from circumstance and unintended consequences among other things too - you learn when you are interested in something then you become a vacuum cleaner for it - food for thought - follow your passion

Posted by: geo at May 22, 2007 02:28 PM

Right or wrong, as a practical matter, a degree or two from a "high level" university is necessary if you want to work for Google. More than that, they famously require (with some exceptions) that you do well while at that school, too.

I've often wondered if any sort of "Google effect" has filtered down and inspired (some, a few?) students to get better grades while in university -- especially those kids who have no plans to get a graduate degree.

Posted by: Sean Garrett at May 22, 2007 01:00 PM

Harvard College, Class of 2005 here.

You get a lot of benefits from being in a class/college with a diverse range of extremely competent people. Contacts and access afterward, as mdy said, are huge pluses, but even outside of that, I've learned more sometimes from conversations with friends than I have in an equal amount of class time. While that's not an exclusive Top Tier school benefit, I feel like it may be more possible over a broader range of subjects there than in other places just because of who you are likely to meet and become friends with.

The joke is that when you come to Harvard, you meet someone who does everything you do better, and sings opera. Harvard has some of the well-rounded students, who are just really great at everything, but more often than not, it is the case that a student is selected because they are very good to great at everything AND have one thing at which they are off-the-charts phenomenal. No matter how good you are, there's always someone there that's better than you are at something. The ability to work with and learn from these people, both about their specialty and about learning in general, is very valuable.

I can't "look back over my life" and say "in the long run" but I do not know that I would be as overall competent or "well put together" without my experiences there, especially of the people.

Posted by: David Kowarsky at May 22, 2007 12:22 PM

I dropped out after 2.5 years at a state university and haven't found lack of a degree to be a substantial hinderance in the development of my career or income growth or what have you.

But, of course, the real wisdom of that decision is something that will play out in the long term, not in the perceptibly near future. So, ultimately it remains to be seen.

Otherwise, I think all posters who said something to the effect of "it depends on what exactly you want to do" have nailed it. There are certain professions where my lack of degree would absolutely throw me against a very low-hanging glass ceiling, and others where people won't so much as question whether I have a high school diploma as long as I produce with professionalism and evident competency.

Posted by: valeko at May 22, 2007 11:38 AM

Wow. I was late to this party today and all of the good answers have already been taken! ;-)

Lots of good viewpoints here...I think of all of them mdy best expresses my own perspective on it all.

Posted by: K² at May 22, 2007 11:02 AM

Well, Considering that it cost me $42,000 to obtain my Bachelors Degree from DeVry (Kansas City) I would say that the name of the school carries 60% of the price of the education received.

Only when I initially joined the workforce, did my degree get my "foot in the door" but since that time, it hasn't mattered one damn bit (and I am still paying off the loans, but almost done).

Posted by: Michael Bailey at May 22, 2007 10:19 AM

I generally agree with Chris Penn, and have long said that a bachelor's is today what a HS diploma was years ago. Purely in terms of receiving a quality education, I would say that it is not necessary to attend a top-level university.

However, I would say that having an undergrad degree from a top-level university will open doors more easily and all other things being equal, may get you a job over the next guy. I equate it with being the child of a movie actor trying to become an actor. Who your father is will put you on the fast track to getting the first role, and the rest is up to you.

Additionally, top-level colleges are where recruiters for top-level corporations find their next wave of talent, so if that appeals to you, a top-level school is the place to be. Faculty at these schools also seem to be better connected with sources of research funding and with peer review journals, so if a career in academia is where you see yourself, there could be some advantage there.

Posted by: Dave Kawalec at May 22, 2007 10:19 AM

Interesting question, Jeff. You got me thinking.

I think the answer depends on what career the person wants to pursue.

Certain professions (e.g., doctors, lawyers) are open only to people who have college educations. Many other occupations are open to anyone, with or without a diploma.

Someone with an insatiable curiosity and access to a good library can learn more on his own than someone who lives his/her college years like they're one long party.

Having said all that, if a person decides to get a college degree, I believe that the main benefits s/he gets from attending a "top-level" university are:

1. The connections that s/he makes there; and

2. The "pedigree" that the university diploma gives you, and the doors that such a pedigree opens.

In other words: It's not the education. The contacts you make while you're there, and the access that you enjoy afterwards -- that's the premium you're paying for. If you're the type of person who can maximize that, then a "top-tier" university may be worth the expense.

Posted by: mdy at May 22, 2007 10:13 AM

First- disclosure- I went to the Univ. Of Pennsylvania for Undergrad and Penn State for Law School. I took some classes in the summer at Univ. of Rochester and Univ. of Florida.

Differences?

I had great teachers everywhere, and less than great teachers as well.


The Name Schools, in theory, are selecting the right hand side of the bell curve, meaning you're more likely to hang with people who are as smart if not smarter than you. This is a very good thing. Yet I also do alumni interviews with kids now applying to Penn, and I see a lot of terrific, talented kids getting rejected- kids I would invest in if they had their own IPO's in a nanosecond, if it took that long.


I think "branded" education is something that helps you get that first job, and later on, people seem to use that "badge" as a talisman of intelligence, rightly or wrongly. You hear someone went to Harvard, you automatically assume they must be smart, even if they are a dork.


However, I think college education is TOTALLY what you make of it. You can spend four years slacking, or four years figuring out who you are and what really interests you with a bunch of other people on the same quest.

I also think that a four year school is the best and safest place to park young people while they figure this out. (Keep in mind that those frontal lobes of your brain aren't fully developed until at least age 22, so your critical thinking skills are not jelled).

Whether the Brand is worth the added expense in today's climate is a crap shoot. You need to be a critical thinker, flexible and agile- and those people come from almost anywhere. What you need more than anything is challenge and direction- and not to waste time being miserable, not following your talents.

Posted by: Whitney at May 22, 2007 10:04 AM

Well having not received any post secondary education beyond a 6 month part time computer course I can say that for me not having a degree hasnt been a huge hindrance (sorry I missed last weeks question). That being said I got started in Canada where not everyone has a university degree. It seems like down here you would be hard pressed to even get a job mopping floors without a degree.

I agree with Chris Penn about going to a lower cost state school for the initial 4 years though. Seems like a waste to shell out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for 4 years of partying. As for paying the big bucks for the big name I think it will only help you so much. If you want to be a doctor or a lawyer then I imagine it goes a long way. If you want to be a writer or historian you are probably only going to be as good as your talents allow you to be.

Posted by: Jesse Chenard at May 22, 2007 09:59 AM

Experience is worth more then qualifications. Plus education isn't keeping up with what is changing out in the real world.

However I must admit, education is a good place to getting you started (if you know nothing to begin with).

Posted by: Dallas Freeman at May 22, 2007 09:52 AM

To last weeks question (which I'm sorry I missed):I would say that I know more from the stuff I taught myself in school. A good classroom is a class that pushes you and doesn't get in your way.

This week's question: I agree with Chris, most of my friends and I went to a good state schools and then went on to a more "top-level" graduate schools.

Posted by: Dave LaMorte at May 22, 2007 09:44 AM

I do not think it is worthwhile to spend the houndreds of thousands of dollars to send your kid to a top tier university. Much better for kids to go to a school they can afford and where they can learn at their own pace and in a place where they feel safe.

I guess, in the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I went to the State University of New York. But even here, in the rarefied atmosphere of educational publishing, my lack of a Vassar degree was not a hindrance.

I do however think some sort of degree is important - I think of it as your ticket, your union card to get into the game.

Posted by: Barbara at May 22, 2007 09:35 AM

It's completely and totally irrelevant today. The undergraduate degree today is worth what the high school diploma was a generation ago, if that. Undergraduate degrees are commodities, and paying top dollar for a "brand name" for an undergraduate degree is a waste of money. I see hundreds of students every day with undergraduate loan balances that would impress a mortgage broker, and these students have very little prospects of making their payments.

Graduate and terminal degrees are still important and the brand names there have worth, but for undergraduate, your best bet is a good public 4-year university like UMass or Penn State, followed by some work experience and possibly a graduate degree. Ultimately, though, what really matters are the results you can deliver, and you don't need a degree to be competent at life - and many people with brand name degrees, to be blunt, suck at life. They just paid more.

Posted by: Christopher Penn, Financial Aid Podcast at May 22, 2007 09:30 AM

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